Jubilee Event Guide
Reginald Mitchell Way - Response from the Stoke-on-Trent City Council to a letter sent by Joan Walley on our behalf.
Mrs Walley has sent a letter to the council on our behalf asking about the state of the roundabout. Here is their reply.
Dear Joan
Thanks for your email of 10 March 2009 in connection with road and pedestrian safety concerns expressed by residents at the junction of Reginald Mitchell Way and John Rhodes Way, Tunstall.
I can confirm that extensive communication has taken place over recent years with residents, resident groups and the Police with regard to concerns over road safety issues on Reginald Mitchell Way. I have summarised below the key issues raised and the actions we have taken as a result.
Speeding /Accidents
The speed limit on Reginald Mitchell Way is 40mph, reducing to 30mph through each of the roundabouts. Whilst the occurrence of any road traffic accidents are regrettable, at this particular roundabout accident records indicate only 4 slight injuries in 5 years. In terms of meeting the relevant criteria for installation of speed cameras, the accident numbers on Reginald Mitchell Way are considered low, compared to other 'A1 classified roads, within the City, and the route would not generally qualify for speed camera enforcement.
The decisions about speed camera enforcement are taken by the Staffordshire Casualty Reduction Partnership and they would normally focus their resources on those sites where speeding is the major cause of the accidents and there is a very high accident rate. However, we have listened to residents concerns and through the Casualty Reduction Partnership, as an exception, we have arranged for mobile cameras to be deployed to enforce speed restrictions along this section of Reginald Mitchell Way.
The speed limit signage has also been reviewed and there are currently the maximum number of speed limit signs permissible. Notwithstanding this "THINK - Kill your Speed" signs have been erected on this route, together with additional large road marking roundels highlighting the speed limit, which have been installed on the approaches to the roundabout to improve driver awareness.
Pedestrian Crossing
Following residents concerns in 2007 we introduced a Toucan Crossing to allow pedestrians and cyclists to cross Reginald Mitchell Way. This provides a safe, controlled crossing for school children attending Hollywall Primary School and additionally its location provides a signalised crossing point for pedestrians and cyclists using High Street.
Visibility for traffic leaving Bankeyfields Estate Again, in response to residents concerns, last year we undertook works to cut back and permanently remove the vegetation on the approach embankments to improve the visibility for motorists leaving the estate. Visibility both on the approach to the roundabout and as you are circulating around it fully meets the criteria as required by Department for Transport's highways design standards.
On a cautionary note, increasing the visibility excessively to the right, when approaching a roundabout, can have a detrimental effect, increasing vehicle speeds entering the roundabout, and potentially leading to an increase in accidents. We will ensure that the vegetation remains low and that the visibility to the right for traffic entering the roundabout meets the DfT's criteria for the speed of traffic.
Further proposed improvements
Clearly the residents on the Bankeyfields estate continue to be concerned about road safety at this roundabout, particularly about the way in which vehicles navigate around the roundabout itself, with the suggestion that there is poor lane discipline by motorists. Again, in responding to these concerns one of my Senior Highway Engineers has produced a preliminary design for roadmarking improvements on the approach and through this roundabout in order t encourage better motorist lane discipline. This scheme, along with the many other schemes proposed around the City, will now be developed further and taken forward for delivery as part of the 2009/10 Local Transport Plan capital programme.
I trust the above answers the queries you have received from your constituents.
Sincerely,
Chris
Comments
One word
One word springs to mind............
FUDGE
We have listened and we will do as little as possible, to help we can paint a few lines as cars can not cross them..........
Although we await a serious injury, when it happens we will say sorry we got it wrong, of course this will make the serious injury instantly dissappear.
Why bother replying is my question, oh i know because Joan Walley asked the question........Thanks for trying Joan but you must get as frustrated as we do even more so i guess with this beaurocratic lot.........
Gordy
Fudge
Well self moderated then.
Signs
There is only a tiny 30 mph sign, right on the roundabout. Theres no signs saying kill your speed or concealed entrance, nothing like that. Can you have enough signs?
Mobile Speed Cameras
The mobile speed cameras have been recommended by ourselves to the police from our intial neighbourhood watch meeting and by PC Talbot (whose request numerous times on our behalf), not at the councils request.
But fair play to them if they have also requested a review, it might mean that they are listening to us.
Increasing our viewing distance
"On a cautionary note, increasing the visibility excessively to the right, when approaching a roundabout, can have a detrimental effect, increasing vehicle speeds entering the roundabout, and potentially leading to an increase in accidents."
I did have to laugh at the point that by increasing our viewing distance coming out of the roundabout might lead to more accidents. It wasn't a funny laugh, more of a dry, I can't believe he just said that laughter.
Maintenance
"We will ensure that the vegetation remains low and that the visibility to the right for traffic entering the roundabout meets the DfT's criteria for the speed of traffic."
And that's why the bankeyfield user SIMPON's tried to secure the use of a lawn mower last week was it. No doubt they'll be cutting enforce in the next few days to back track what they've said.
Increasing visibility, will
Increasing visibility, will cause more people to speed through the roundabout!
I didn't laugh monkey, I felt rather patronised. I notice there wasn't any justification for that statement. He didn't say that increasing visibility would benefit people trying to pull out, and also allow drivers coming down the road the option to slow down as there are cars present.
But with out meaning to, Chris (no last name give) did say that there is a visibility issue. At least we agree on something.
Lastly, why should residents be forced to cut the grass, when the council have already pin pointed it as a point of concern but have failed to do anything about it.
In my eyes what is not said but applied rather unwittingly gives residents extra ammunition.
AH
Totally confused
having read the reply to Joan, am now totally confused, maybe Mr Duncan can clear a few points up for me, I thought it was Joan herself who told the council they could have money from Tony Blairs cycleways fund for the crossing, as they could not afford it, that is why we had a toucan crossing in the wrong place, but at least we had one.
Signage is another issue, no one has mentioned the signage, traffic lights, alterations being made on the Reg, when the firestation is built, or has that not occurred to them to ask what the fire authority want.
Finally only "minor injuries" tell that to a chap at work who wrote his scubby off, and almost himself.
Links
Hi Mark
Heres the links to the old news letters you guys put out.
http://www.bankeyfields.co.uk/newsletter/2006autum
http://www.bankeyfields.co.uk/newsletter/2006winter
And Tony's interview with staffs live.
http://www.bankeyfields.co.uk/forum/bankeyfields-neighbourhood-watch/ton...
Reading above (letter), it makes it sound like you didn't have to fight the council tooth and nail to get something in place.
There is some serious lack of thought going on in the reply to Joan.
Hi Would just like to put my
Hi
Would just like to put my point across about the crossing, I can assure it was a very hard fight to get that crossing in place and it involved alot of contact with very high people within the council and it kept on hitting a brick wall with a gentleman called Mr Tabbernor.
As he kept on telling us that there was not enough people living in the area to use a crossing. In the end we were told right the money is there for the crossing and then it was not, so I put it to the most senior person possible and I put it to him ok I understand if the money is gone it is gone, but why not come and show people how to cross the road safely, in the end about 18 to 24 months later work finally commenced on the crossing ( the reason they went for a toucan crossing was totally out of our control & the reason they wanted the toucan crossing was that when the cities cycle ways are extended to this area the facilities are in place for it also, and I did put it to them that the only reason they are also going for that is for to try and make themselves look good and take some of the embarrasment away from them not putting enough safety measures in place when the road was first built.
The main thing was it was getting a crossing put in after years of no one doing anything about it and would make it safer for people walking across reginald mitchell way.
BUT THEN AGAIN IF NO ONE WALKS AND USES THEIR CARS ALL THE TIME WHAT WOULD THEY KNOW, I AM FED UP WITH PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS CROSSING ALL THE TIME OR SAYING WE DID NOT HAVE TO FIGHT FOR IT, WHAT WAS ANYBODY DOING ABOUT THIS BEFORE 2005.
Tony, I wasn't having a go
Tony, I wasn't having a go dude, I was saying the council claim credit, even when they put a mountain in the way of an objective.
No one is having a pop
No one is having a go at the work you did, it was in response to Joans letter, the council listened to residents, and gave them a crossing. I am sure there is a copy of a letter where Joan informs the council of the cycleways fund, thought you may have it thats all
Hi I am not having a go at
Hi
I am not having a go at anyone in particular either, all I am saying is it took alot of work, and in relation to that letter I will have to look through all the letters I still have regarding the issue, and the last part was just a small go at people in the past who have complained to me about the crossing.
We all know the reginald mitchell way issues are a right pain in the backside and now the warmer weather is coming again all the motorbikes are coming out once again so heres to another noisy summer.
Planning
Part of my day includes planning, not roads though, so here goes, create a filter lane on the downward stretch, leading onto the estate, this would create easy access, increase visibility, and could be used by all motorists when the emergency vehicles pull out of the station to attend fires etc.
Thanks for the links, there was so much going on back then that Memories become blurred, will try and get all the old documentation, so know what went on back then.
Your welcome
What do you mean back then? Memories are blurred from last week.
Yeah any documentation that you or Tony have can go straight onto the site.
I got the same reply except
I got the same reply except a bit more tagged on, when I asked how Chatterley Road managed to get £100,000 spent on Traffic Calming and pedestrian Crossing, any one care to find out how many accidents happened there?
Big fudge pots with chocolate treacle on...
http://tunstall.spaces.live.com/
•°o.OO.o° » http://iannorris68.wordpress.com/ « °o.OO.o°•
Blah Blah
That letter might as well say blah blah for all the use it was. I see why the goverment is thinking about taking over the running of our city council.
Oh and one for you notes well done to the driver of the small white van reg No W10 RON you did manage to get a straight line and aproximately 60 miles per hour across the roundabout at 06:20 this morning. Why after that did you slow down to about 50 mph on the A500 :answer To pick your nose.
Focus roundabout in The Sentinel again
Clear view 'could lead to accident' - the campaign to highlight the issues with the council and other motorists goes on.
Some good news. We are getting a massive amount of support from the Police on these issues, so I'd like to thank them for that, and also to the Sentinel for highlighting the problems to a wider audience.
http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/news/Clear-view-lead-accident/artic...
To keep the article alive longer, please visit the above link and feel free to comment.
P.S do we need to report that strange man in the bushes to anyone?
They were quite spikey too
It was the most undignified I've felt for a long time, having all of those cars rubber necking as the Sentinel Photographer go me to crouch in the thorny bushes.
All for a good cause though.
Matt
To The Right ?
Our erstwhile council official stated increasing the view to the right would encourage people to speed up. Surly the speeding motorists coming downhill are looking to their right and its the view to their left we have the problem with.
Matt looks like you are not used to being in a bush.
Fnar Fnar
Simple Sign would help!!!
Why don’t the council look into replacing the sign which is on the roundabout advertising Autocabs with one that alerts drivers to the fact that there is a concealed junction to the left as you approach the roundabout from Goldenhill. Surely that would be an inexpensive start to getting drivers to slow down. Or does the sign advertising Autocabs generate that much revenue. It is a sorry state when the council will not do anything to ensure the safety of drivers exiting the estate until there has been a number of a serious accident. May it be on there conscience if there were to be a fatality.
Taxi
I Need a cab right now, anyone know the number on that sign?
P.S.
Matt, I'm sure I posted regarding strange men in bushes spotted at side of Reg Mitch..LOL
What do you really want
I don't have a direct interest as I'm not a resident but I am a highway engineer and it seems to me that some of you are being disingenuous in your complaints. The problem, as I understand it, is that traffic on RMW goes too fast on the approach to the Focus Roundabout despite there being speed limits (40 on RMW and 30 on the roundabout). If traffic stayed within the speed limit, would there still be a safety problem?
You can't put road humps on a road like RMW so you can only control speed by the use of safety cameras if drivers continue to ignore the speed limits. Permanent cameras require an accident casualty problem to be at a level where safety cameras can be justified - you can blame the British Association of Drivers for that one. If the Safety Camera Partnership says there aren't enough casualties to justify permanent cameras, the mobile ones will not deal with the problem except on the occasions when they are deployed.
So what next.
First, if the visibility for residents entering the roundabout is improved, there is a strong likelihood that some people (boy racers) will drive more quickly out of the estate onto the roundabout. That's what happens when visibility is improved - some people drive more quickly. You could ask what the standard is for this visibility and whether the current layout meets that standard. If it does, your argument is with the Department for Transport in approving the standard and not with the Council who are simply applying a national standard.
Second seems to be the size of the 30 and 40 mph signs. Again these sizes are set by the government for the speed of the road, although they can have big yellow backing boards to make them stand out more. Repeater 40 mph signs could also be increased in number (every second lamp column?). Although they will continue to be ignored by many drivers, they will have less of an excuse.
Third, you could ask for changes to the layout of the roundabout to hatch out some of the road and make the turn into it from RMW tighter. That won't put off the boy racers though who enjoy taking the racing line.
Fourth is a complete rejig of the junction - perhaps with traffic lights - but don't expect there to be fewer accidents - traffic lights on fast roads are a recipe for disaster because people run red lights - and don’t say that none of you ever do - I don’t believe you.
I think you need to be positive in what you ask for and to ask for things that are sensible, easy to do, don't cost too much and fit with funding criteria. You are much more likely to get those done. Moaning won't get you very far unless you marshal your facts and present evidence which can’t be refuted. Get a speed gun from the police and use it regularly and keep the data accurately. Get the accident record for the road and use it to prepare your own report on why safety cameras are needed.
RMW
Guest, thank you for your comments on this issue, however i feel you may need to come and actually see the problem and i think you would realise the issues clearer. The main issue we have is visibilty from the roundabout when turning right up RMW, it has very poor visibilty due to the embankment being built up and shrubs / trees planted and not being regularily pruned etc etc.
I for one can not see how making visibilty clearer up the road would actually increase speeding down RMW, they can not see the roundabout as it is hidden until the last say 50 yds and as you may be aware, this does not give them enough time to react and deaccelerate enough. We have had 3 or 4 policing days where a good number of motorists have been caught speeding, and the local inspector is aware and i believe concerned about the number of motorists being caught speeding.
If you do live local i would love to meet you and we could take a look at our issues and offer advise on what options we would have.
If you would like to contact me please feel free to do so on
go@hobb.co.uk
Thanks
Gordon
simple solution
surely when the fire station is built, then that stretch of road should be 30 mph from the high street to focus roundabout
What we'd like is to safely pull out of the estate
Have you heard of the expression look before you leap, well, we don't really have the option to look, it's more a case of leap. So when the Sentinel ran a story the other week, one poster said that he was fed up with people from our estate just pulling out on traffic. He has a point, people on the estate do just seem to pull out on people, and there is a perfect explanation. Two even.
The first will be is if a car appears from nowhere pulling off our estate then chances are your speeding.
The second is we can't see up the road, just about 1 or 2 seconds worth, so when a little 1.0litre car pulls out of the estate it's going to be a hit and miss, luckily miss.
As Popeye points out, come down and see for yourself. The police did and back us 100% to improve safety, so so much for moaning.
As for moaning, we've had to make this high profile as people in the cities highways department have responded in such a negative way in the past I'd almost hazzard a guess that they've not come down at rush hour to witness what goes on.
But thanks for sharing your knowledgeable insight, it's always good to see how a highway planner thinks and comes across, just as I thought really.
Road Markings R.M.W
Regarding the approach to the roundabout coming down R.M.W would it help if the three lanes were marked out properly i.e? Arrows painted on the road Left turn for the estate, Straight Ahead and right turn for focus and Churhills.
Plus we could do with a sign on the Roundabout alerting drivers to the fact that there is a concealed junction to the left.
obstructing views at junctions
if it is correct that blocking someones view slows traffic down, why cannot I build a tall wall or hedge around my property, as I live on a corner plot? Answer is planning permission will not be granted as it blocks the view of people at the junction. makes perfect sense, not!
traffic law
I am right in thinking that there is a law against parking too near a junction, as it causes an obstruction!
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/T
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069860
http://www.roadsidelawyer.co.uk/questions/parking-within-10m-of-a-junction
Guests facts
I think a few of the posters here should read Guest,s post again carefully. As he states he is a highways engineer so he obviously understands all the rules, guidelines and criterea (spelling?) that have to be followed. He/she is trying to help with this post and being quite objective. First statement made. " You are being disingenious in your complaints". Big pointer there. I:E We need a bullet point complaint list and stick to it. Also relevant question was posed " If traffic stayed within the speed limit would there be a problem ?". The answer is No. If traffic did come to the roundabout at 30 MPH this would be fine. Trouble is the 30 MPH signs are 20 yards from the roundabout at this time most drivers have not adjuted their speed. I suggest we use this post as a guide at the next NHW meeting as the police will be attending so that we can achive our aim which is simlpy to make the roundabout safe.Guest I thank you for your informative post.
Guests Facts
Steve i think you misinterpreted my post i was not having an all out attack on guest i was simply pointing out that as you know there is no given solution to any problem and this one in particular, i was actually asking maybe incorrectly if he would look at it with me and tell / advise us of the best possible way forward using his expertise.
Although speed is an issue, the issue of visibility is more of an issue in my opinion.
My offer was a genuine one and if my post offended Guest in anyway then i apologise.
Gordon
RMW foxes
Just seen a young fox on RMW. Wish they would learn to use the pelican crossings
Thanks for your comments
I was quite heartened by some of the comments (and less so by others) to my posting earlier in the week so I thought I would offer you a bit more advice on how best to tackle Civic Centre bureaucracy.
1. Get you facts together. If the roundabout is dangerous, ask them for the accident statistics. The police collect these and they are generally recorded accurately. Ask for dates, causations and casualty numbers within 100m of the roundabout. Also ask if they have data on non-injury accidents. These don’t have to be reported to the police so they may not be recorded. Ask for traffic survey data, preferably a classified turning count at the roundabout.
2. Get your arguments together. If they tell you the roundabout is safe, ask them to justify that statement. Ask them for a safety audit of the current layout or anything they are proposing to change. Ask them why the roundabout feels unsafe even if the accident record doesn’t back it up.
3. Get their proposed answers. Ask them what precisely they intend to do in response to your concerns. Ask them how they intend to keep the speed of traffic on RMW to the speed limit. Ask them how they intend to ensure pedestrian and cycling safety.
If you keep your correspondence to questions and don’t shout or moan, you will always get a better outcome. Then be clear what precisely you want and back it up with a reasoned argument. Shouting and moaning will get you nowhere. You need to have a clear set of proposals and the arguments as to why that is the right thing to do. If necessary you may need some professional advice, particularly on visibility and stopping sight distances, although a quick internet search will get you most information. The Department for Transport does an excellent series of local transport notes (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/ltnotes/ ).
Three things that may help reduce speeds on RMW, short of speed cameras:
1. Reduce the approach lanes at the roundabout from 3 to 2.
2. Large yellow backing boards for the 30 and 40mph signs
3. Vehicle activated speed signs
Hope that helps a bit.
Many thanks
Thanks very much for the valuable information, sorry if my previous comments sounded negative, afraid bureaucracy is to blame, am sure between the NHW and police, a detailed approach to this problem, with those guidelines you have set out, will help to resolve this issue, we are still awaiting to see what plans that the fire service want in place on the RMW.
My reasons for being negative on obstructing views stem from the Telford roundabout barriers, they are a nightmare, even as you approach them at the legal speed. Once again thanks for the info.
Fender bender
There has been a bit of a prang on the bottom roundabout, the road coming from Tunstall, did not look to serious but police were in attendance. When I came back that way bit after eight pm one of the cars Rover 75 was being put on a recovery truck.
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